"The Circumstances that Led to the Protests have not Gone Away"

Azattyk Radio—Radio Free Liberty/Radio Europe's Service in Kazakhstan—interviews Journalist Cheryl Reed about her Investigation into the Kazakhstan Protest Coverage
Original Article in English
January 10, 2023, 08:13
By Elnur Alimova 

Protesters in Almaty on January 5, 2022 — the day Kazakhstan declared a nationwide state of emergency after peaceful anti-price rallies escalated into clashes and protesters stormed government buildings

“Once you start shooting at people, they will retaliate,” said US journalist Cheryl L. Reed, who reports on the January events in Kazakhstan. Azattyk asked the journalist's opinion about why peaceful rallies turned into riots, why the Kazakh authorities abandoned the international investigation of Bloody January, and whether society's views have changed.

Cheryl L. Reed is an American journalist and recipient of the Goldsmiths Award for investigative journalism. Cheryl spent four months traveling around the regions of Kazakhstan where the riots took place, and spoke with journalists covering these events, including correspondents from RFE/RL. Her articles about Kazakhstan were published by Diplomat.

Azattyk: There are different versions of what happened a year ago. President Kassym-Jomart Tokayev then stated that the country had been subjected to a terrorist attack, and there were traitors among high-ranking officials who wanted to remove him from power. The version about the struggle of the elites is quite popular among Kazakhstanis. So what was it: an attempted coup or a chaotic popular protest? What do you think really happened?

Cheryl L. Reed: Almost everyone I've talked to, including people in high positions, people with very good reputations, people who run activist movements, NGOs, they all have these large-scale conspiracy theories. I'm from the US and I'm not interested in conspiracy theories. My country has already come across many such theories, and they never come true. When I hear these conspiracy theories, I just don't believe them.

For me, this was an interesting phenomenon, because of the foreign journalists with whom I spoke, not one believed in conspiracy theories. It was the local journalists with whom I spoke who believed in them. But for me, all the manipulations they talked about, how it was supposed to work, just do not make sense. Maybe because I don't live in this country. I think I understand the politics of Kazakhstan quite well, but it was very difficult for me to believe in all that they suggested.

The police tried to stop not only protesters, but also journalists, sometimes using physical force.

My focus on this project has been to listen to what journalists have to say about their own freedom of speech. How did they manage to communicate, especially at a very critical moment when the whole country was in dire need of information about what was happening. Many of them themselves were in an information vacuum. The police tried to stop not only protesters, but also journalists, sometimes using physical force. Therefore, I was interested in how these journalists covered [what was happening] and coped with repression by the security forces and what they saw, what they felt, what they thought, what they were deprived of and what risks they took. And what that risk meant to them.

RFE/RL: What was the most challenging part of your time in Kazakhstan when you were interviewing people and collecting data?

Cheryl L. Reed: Perhaps the most difficult thing was that the KNB was following me, filming me, stalking my translators, constantly following me, following the people with whom I spoke, and trying in every possible way to prevent me from getting information.

I can tell you one case. I am sitting in Aktobe, interviewing a journalist at the hotel where I am staying. We sit in a booth, and one guy walks back and forth and shoots us in the open. I don't really care, because I'm used to it. But at that moment, I was openly filmed by so many people and it annoyed me so much that I went up to that guy and started yelling at him. He didn't seem to expect this and just left.

But they tried to do it in such obvious ways. For example, a certain person who looked like a gardener was walking around our table with a camera in his pocket. We went into a booth where no one really could go, but there was a window and it suddenly opened. That is, they constantly tried to eavesdrop, by any means. On the one hand, it looks comical, but on the other hand, it is very distracting.

A burned-out car near the burning building of the Almaty akimat. Protesters against rising fuel prices broke into the building of the akimat and set it on fire.

RFE/RL: Returning to the topic of your research: in your opinion, how did peaceful protests that began in different regions of Kazakhstan over fuel prices and social problems escalate into violence? Was it specially organized?

Cheryl L. Reed: I think that in Zhanaozen and Aktau, the common people, the "lower classes" have definitely begun to protest. I believe that some individuals took advantage of this and tried to do what they wanted. In general, what I hear from journalists is that most of the protests were very peaceful. But when the police began to respond to these protests, it escalated into violence.

Suddenly someone starts shooting at you, and no matter what they shoot, even if it's rubber bullets, you will defend yourself.

It turns out that in a country where it is impossible to protest or gather in large crowds, masses of people gathered - two, three, four thousand people, and then the police simply went crazy. That's when they started throwing grenades and firing rubber bullets, and that's when the protesters started responding in kind.

It was as if the police were overwhelmed by these masses of people and then tried to disperse them. Suddenly someone starts shooting at you, and no matter what they shoot, even if it's rubber bullets, you will defend yourself. And this only made it worse - intending to simply disperse the crowd, the authorities only aggravated the situation.

Azattyk: How did people perceive the actions of local authorities? How did they assess the level of communication with them by local authorities?

Cheryl L. Reed: I think in some regions it's definitely good. Zhanaozen and Aktau were much more positive. And, as you can see, no one died as a result. There was a direct link between the lack of communication from the authorities and the deaths.

In Kyzylorda, it seems, the akim came out and really tried to talk to people, but it did not help. So in some cases it didn't help because the crowd was too excited. And in some other cities where there was no response from the authorities, such as Almaty, journalists continued to say that the protesters were so upset that no one came out to them that this was one of the reasons they used force.

Troops in Almaty's main square, where hundreds of people protested against the government. January 6, 2022.

RFE/RL: How did the people you interviewed react to President Tokayev's order to shoot without warning?

Cheryl L. Reed: Several people have mentioned it. I mean, they were afraid. And so I think there was a lot of self-censorship. As a result, many journalists backed down. Other activists criticized this order because, imagine, people were shooting without knowing who was there. People who are just walking down the street are legally driving down that road. Yes, most people were very critical about it. And then many journalists said that they were afraid of this order, they were afraid that the soldiers and the police, who knew who they were, would use this order to kill them.

RFE/RL: Human rights organizations and the European Parliament are among those pushing for an international investigation into the violence. But the authorities of Kazakhstan refused. Why?

Cheryl L. Reed: In general, people who have something to hide don't want outsiders to come in. In addition, the president announced an amnesty. Many people in power, and probably many police officers, are responsible for the shooting. But how and where does this responsibility end? The President ordered to shoot to kill. Therefore, I believe, everything will end on him, because the security forces were following his order.

Azattyk: Public discussion of the January events, as a rule, concerns the order of Tokayev, those who are responsible for this, and the people involved. But do you think that it is necessary to change the perspective of the discussion on other issues, and how, in your opinion, should it be changed?

Cheryl L. Reed: He [Tokayev] talked a lot about 20,000 terrorists. There were also many discussions and theories about why he said that. I think there should be discussions in every city about how to respond to civil unrest. I mean there should be an established procedure. Have you cordoned off the area? Do you let people have their say?
The people who are protesting have something to say. Generally, if you let them protest, they will eventually go home.

In general, I speak now as someone who has covered many of the protests in America. The people who are protesting have something to say. Generally, if you let them protest, they will eventually go home. Nobody dies, nobody gets hurt. But if you try to stop them, it won't help. As soon as you start shooting at people, they will respond.

I think that as part of a protest that allows people to have freedom of speech, they should be allowed to say what they want to say, as long as they don't destroy property or hurt people. Trying to control everything does not end well. People have frustration inside that they need to vent somehow.

What I hear about the January protests over and over again is that the protest was started by ordinary people. They were ordinary people who were fed up [with what was going on in the country]. It turns out that when a level is reached that people are really ready to risk their freedom, to take the risk of being arrested, it means that they are really already fed up. And then you have a real problem, you see it in many places. Look at Iran now. In some of these countries, where there is no freedom of speech, there is no opportunity to protest, civil unrest eventually breaks out and the people react, and not always peacefully.

RFE/RL: The January events were the second time in the history of independent Kazakhstan that the authorities used force against people. How did the January events change the attitude of society towards the authorities? Did the people you interviewed mention this?

Cheryl L. Reed: I didn't interview ordinary people. But I asked everyone I talked to how it changed the country. Some said that nothing had changed at all, while others felt that it made people more open to discuss controversial things, that these events made them feel more free to discuss such things.

But what can I tell you now, having traveled 20 thousand miles (32 thousand km. - Ed. ) across the country, interviewing all these people: I would not be surprised if another protest happens.

After all, what did this protest achieve? Many people would say he didn't change anything. Perhaps these events allowed Tokayev to gain more power and get rid of the control of Nazarbayev and his family. Maybe some people would say that they are still in the same situation as they were a year ago.
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I definitely feel that the situation and circumstances that started the January protests have not gone away and that the fire could break out at any moment.

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